A Chicago veteran speaks out tonight about the graphic pictures from Abu Ghraib prison. He worked there as an interrogator. He even used dogs to intimidate detainees. But not like this.
Tony Lagouranis never saw nudity or sexual horseplay, but believes what he did see -- and did -- was worse. Because he was following orders. He says everywhere he went, American soldiers tortured detainees. If the Iraqis were truly enemy prisoners of war; he says, American soldiers violated the Geneva Convention every day. In his eyes, it accomplished very little, as you'll hear in my Closer Look.
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Lagouranis: I used dogs maybe three, four times in Iraq. During interrogations to intimidate the prisoners. The dogs were always muzzled. They were always on a leash and being controlled by a professional dog handler. But the prisoner was blindfolded. He had a hood. And he was handcuffed. So he didn't know the dog was controlled. So when the dog would bark and lunge at the prisoner, the prisoner obviously was terrified.
Tony Lagouranis says Army brass not only supported, but encouraged harsh treatment of Iraqi prisoners.
Lagouranis: I saw it almost everywhere I went. Every detention facility. It was cold in Iraq. And so we would just leave them exposed to the elements with insufficient clothing and blankets for long periods of time. And they might be in a stress position -- you know, all night long on their knees -- we don't allow them to sleep and we keep them very cold.
Suppelsa: Is that torture?
Lagouranis: Sure. Depends on your definition of torture. I think the administration would say "no."
Former Defense Secretary James Schlesinger (2004): "It was a kind of Animal House on the night shift."
Lagouranis: It's obviously not bad apples. I mean, it's clear, it's documented what the Pentagon was telling us we could and couldn't do. And those harsh tactics were part of it.
Suppelsa: Do you think you should be tried for war crimes?
Lagouranis: Well, certainly I don't -- that's not what I want, no. And I don't know if I broke the law or not. I'm not a lawyer.
Suppelsa: Are you afraid that you did?
Lagouranis: Sure, yeah. Sure.
Suppelsa: Did any of this stuff get good, real intelligence?
Lagouranis: They didn't give up any information at all. Lies or truth. All I was getting was "I don't know" in answer to my questions.
Lagouranis: If you're just going for intelligence, you don't have to threaten the prisoner and make him confess to what he did. You just want him to feel like if he gives you information about things that he knows about that don't necessarily incriminate himself, then he's going to help himself. And that's easy to do if you get the detainee to trust you. You don't get that through humiliating him or torturing him.
Lagouranis says his prisoners didn't even have information to give. He saw men locked up for simply having too much cash, or for having a cellphone and shovel in their car: potential tools for a roadside bomb.
Lagouranis: We can't get the insurgents, so we'll just take whoever we can get on the slightest suspicion and then, you know, ask them.. "Where's Ibrahim Abdulli? Where's WMD?" It's just ridiculous. It's a waste of time.
Suppelsa: What compelled you to speak? What compelled you to tell what you did? Explain how you felt about it.
Lagouranis: I was angry. I was angry at the Army for putting me in that position. I was angry at [Defense Secretary] Donald Rumsfeld during the Congressional hearings, when he was saying that the Geneva Conventions applied to all the prisoners in Iraq -- when we were told differently. And we were certainly behaving differently.
Suppelsa: For the guy that's backing the President and everything he's trying to get done -- can they look at you as an Iraqi sympathizer?
Lagouranis: I want to get the job done in Iraq. I want to shut down the insurgency. That's why I'm talking to you today: I want people to know we're not doing a good job. And the behavior that we're engaging in over there is fueling the insurgency, it's not helping us at all.
The Army says it's never instructed soldiers to abuse or torture detainees. A spokesman says: even looking the other way would be against Army values. But records obtained by major newspapers confirm: Interrogators were told to "use military dogs to provoke fear." Lagouranis tells us: everything he did was approved by his superiors, in writing.
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